Interview with Federico N. Fernández on “How Sweden Quit Smoking”.

In late 2023, I attended and reviewed the world premiere of We Are Innovation’s documentary “How Sweden Quit Smoking”. It was a great night, befitting a movie that celebrated the Nordic countries’ fantastic success in tackling and virtually eliminating smoking among their population by ensuring the availability of snus, and more recently, nicotine pouches.

More recently, the Tomasz Agencki-directed documentary picked up both the “Best In Fest” and “Audience Choice” awards at this year’s Global Forum on Nicotine’s Film Festival. In light of these wins, I thought it was high time to sit down with one of the people behind this vital feature, We Are Innovation’s CEO, Federico N. Fernández.

Sharp as a tack, charismatic, and exuding the sort of positivity and goodwill that has become the rarest of commodities these days, Fernández is not your typical CEO, which I mean in the kindest terms.

This wide-ranging interview explores how the documentary was conceived and produced, the harm reduction subculture, the reasons for being optimistic about the future of smoking harm reduction, and much more.

Firstly, congratulations on the much-deserved awards for the movie. You must be all delighted.

Thank you.

So, how did it start? Was it driven by a proposal from Tomasz Agencki, or was it something that We Are Innovation were trying to find a way to highlight?

It was a combination of things, Joseph. We were doing work on Sweden before the documentary came to life, because as you know, Sweden is a country that, by now, is probably “smoke free”, and a couple of years ago was getting very close to being smoke free.

Additionally, many people are under the impression that people have stopped smoking, but that is not the case. In the European Union, where Sweden is a proud member, smoking prevalence is 24%. So, it’s still very high.

We had worked with Tomasz Agencki in the past; I’ve known him for many years and consider him a friend as well. So, let’s say many things aligned, alongside our desire to do different things and tell interesting stories.

In short, we had a fascinating case, and we had a very good person in Tomasz to make this happen.

What we lacked, to a certain extent, were the people. We wanted Swedish voices to tell their story. In that regard, I was blown away that people were so generous and open when we contacted them. Almost all the people who were featured were people whom we didn’t know personally prior to doing the documentary. They were extremely generous and kind, and without them, and without Tomasz, this documentary would not have been possible.

Yes! One thing that I often say about the harm-reduction advocacy community: they’re unbelievably generous with their time.

There are people like Clive Bates whom you email and ask if he has time for an interview, and he responds quickly, happy to accommodate. Or people like Karl Fagerström, I interviewed him before, and he was similarly generous with his time. I mean, these people have better things to do with their time, right?

That’s one of the interesting sub-themes that the documentary captures: the diverse set of people who fall under the umbrella of this movement.

Pulling together a movie of this type is a huge undertaking. So, roughly how long did it take for this to grow from a seed of an idea to, let’s say, the premier?

Almost nine months. From the idea, almost a year, but from the moment we started filming to the premiere, it was close to nine months.

That’s a remarkable turnaround.

Yeah, we were really happy, and again, I’m Tomasz Agenski’s biggest fan because his incredible commitment is the reason that was possible.

Yeah, nine months is incredible for something that is not thrown together; it’s shot really nicely, it looks slick, and the editing makes it really flow. But perhaps even more impressively, you managed to schedule some great characters and personalities that bring the story to life.

I’m happy that you said that, because we wanted to portray different voices. Of course, we wanted to have medical authorities, because that’s an important part of the story. But overall, the documentary is made for “normal people.” It’s not made for, let’s say, Clive Bates; he’s not going to learn much with our documentary.

Instead, it’s made for people who have either heard something about Sweden or could be interested somehow, but have not developed a very strong knowledge of these topics. Essentially, we wanted to put as much knowledge as possible in less than an hour, which was narrated in a way that was easy to follow. In that regard, thanks to Tomasz and the people we interviewed, I think we more or less accomplished that, which I’m very happy about. If you hadn’t previously heard about Sweden and you watch our documentary, I think you’ll come away with a comprehensive idea about what happened there, and why.

Exactly. I often think about these kinds of documentaries, “That’s going to be interesting to me because I’m passionate about smoking harm reduction,” but at the premiere, I actually went with my beautiful wife, who has limited interest in these concepts, and she really liked it. So that was a good yardstick for me about how the average person might feel about the documentary. She was really enthralled by it, and in particular, the more human elements of the story.

Actually, while we’re on the topic, the premiere was excellent. The venue (Royal Society of Arts House) is amazing, the crowd was friendly, and my wife and I still talk about the fact that the food was really nice, which isn’t something that always happens at those things.

That’s good to know. (laughs)

A review on that basis would also have yielded five stars from us.

Those details are also important. (laughs)

Also, there were some great speakers that night, such as Suely Castro, who I chatted to last year about her current project, Quit Like Sweden, and Martin Cullip was in fine form that night, too.

Overall, it was the perfect night and venue for like-minded people to congregate and connect.

So, going back to the documentary itself, how have you found the reception?

I’ve been positively surprised. Technically, the final version of the movie is from 2024, with very minor changes from the version shown at the premiere.

What we did during 2024 was to organise similar events to the one you attended in London, in different cities around the globe. All in all, we did fourteen of these screenings across Europe, Asia, and Latin America.

The response to those events was very good; a lot of people came, including people that we want to target with this message, such as decision-makers, public officials, and representatives from health ministries. The last screening we did was at the beginning of this year at the European Parliament, co-organised with Istituto Bruno Leoni from Italy, who were very generous to invite us.

What this showed us is that the movie really impacted people, and that inviting people to this private event, including journalists, meant there were a lot of articles written internationally about our work and the movie, and, most importantly, it sparked a lot of discussion about Sweden and innovation in nicotine.

Then, at the start of this year, we decided to put make the film freely available on social media and YouTube and so far, across the different platforms, we’ve gathered almost 1.6 million views, which makes us extremely happy and really tells you the movie is a good product, and more importantly, that this topic interests people who currently smoke, because that interest could ultimately be life-saving for them.

It’s important that there is a piece of culture that records this moment in time, because I think in ten or fifteen years, the general population will look back at tobacco control in quite a different way, and not a very positive way.

Just in terms of making the movie, were there competing visions about the direction of the movie, or was it a case that you just had enough trust in Tomasz to deliver the first edit?

Because we’d worked with him in the past and really loved what he did, we trusted him fully. Another amazing feature he had was that he was not what we would consider an expert in nicotine at the start of the feature. But I can assure you he is now, because he really commits to a project.

Something that I always like to emphasise is that the movie is 50 minutes, but we left Sweden with countless hours of interview footage that needed to be edited down brutally. But, what I can assure you—and none of the people we interviewed told me otherwise—Tomasz never changed the spirit of what they were saying in order to serve his own narrative.

I think that is one of Tomasz’s biggest talents: He made a very coherent message without twisting or turning what the people said. So, that’s why we were happy to give him complete creative control over the film, and one of the reasons it turned out so well.

Yeah, it’s remarkable to be capable of narrativising disparate interviews in a way that feels authentic. It’s also quite rare for a documentary filmmaker not to prioritise their agenda.

Is there anything that got left on the editing room floor that you thought, “Oh, maybe there’s some way to include this?”

That’s an interesting point. We were very lucky with the guests that we had for the interviews, and yes, there is a lot of interesting material that we could have used. We did consider publishing the whole interviews as stand-alone pieces.

I was present in basically all the recordings…

No wonder you and Tomasz are such good friends now, with all that travelling around together.

The thing is, each interview itself could have been a documentary on its own – a Karl Fagerström documentary, a Dr. Fredrik Nyström documentary, a Carissa Düring documentary, and so on, because we were talking a lot, asking follow-up questions, and seeking their opinions on how we were approaching the subject. Ultimately, we decided to privilege the documentary itself.

There are a lot of untapped treasures there, so we’ll see if there is something we will do in the future. But we’re also just very happy with how the documentary turned out.

Yeah, there is no shortage of interesting characters there. I think that’s something that emerges naturally in these spaces, because to hold the opinions put forth in these interviews isn’t always easy. Quite often, they come with a penalty, whether that is socially or professionally. So it takes a certain type of character to put their reputation on the line.

That’s probably my favourite thing about the documentary. Sure, the story is well told, the pacing is superb, and there is excellent educational content, but the mix of fascinating people is what really stayed with me. So, in light of that, is there any particular interview or person that was your favourite?

That’s like asking someone who their favourite son or daughter is (laughs).

I know, I know, I’m asking all the tough questions. (laughs)

I cannot choose.

OK, ok. Let’s try a different angle. Was there a favourite moment for you during the documentary?

Oh my god, let me think. I’ll tell you what my favourite moment is. During the start of the documentary, Dr. Fredrik Nyström is making a comparison between nicotine and caffeine, and he says, “I offered you a coffee, and you said yes,” to the camera. But technically, he was saying it to me because I was the one who accepted his coffee. That part of the documentary always makes me laugh.

And was it a good coffee?

Yeah, yeah, very good. Made by Frerik himself, so that’s a plus.

You can’t argue with that; it’s a nice piece of cinema history.

Do you have any future plans to create documentaries about similar subject matter, but focusing on other parts of the world?

Now it’s too early to share anything, but yes, we are thinking about other good examples. To zoom out, sometimes it’s easy to be pessimistic when you’re working with these kinds of topics, but in the last couple of years, there’s been a lot of very good news.

For example, what’s happened in Chile is very encouraging. Chile was one of the most restrictive countries regarding vaping in the world, but finally, at the start of this year, the new regulations were ratified and put into practice, and now Chile has some of the best regulations for vaping in the world. That happened thanks to the work of activists like Ignacio Leiva and many other people and stakeholders.

Additionally, it’s great what’s happening in Japan, the US, and New Zealand. From an EU perspective, Greece and the Czech Republic are doing very clever things to help people switch to safer alternatives. So, there is a lot of good news in general, and I’m extremely optimistic.

I know that this is going to take time. Unfortunately, this is not going to happen as fast as it could happen or should happen, but I am sure it’s going to happen.

The thing that makes me most frustrated about this work is that it should be a non-talking point. We’ve solved the problem of smoking, fantastic! Let’s move on to the next problem because there are a lot of problems in the world that need to be solved.

Yeah, I often think about what a smoking harm-reduction film about the UK would look like. Things would start out really upbeat and positive but by the end, the narrative would essentially take the shape of a tragedy.

We do a lot of work comparing different regulatory frameworks, or the lack of them across the world. The UK is still a leading country in the world when compared to the jungle that you can find in many countries in the world, such as my country, Argentina.

We have high hopes that things can change in Argentina, but as of today, vaping and heated tobacco are forbidden, and snus and nicotine pouches are basically non-existent in the market and instead exist in regulatory limbo.

Sadly, that’s the situation in many countries around the globe. So yes, I know that the UK should be in a better situation, but it’s still much better than what’s happening in other countries.

You’re right, I’m being a bit pessimistic, but if I were asked five years ago how smoking harm-reduction would look in the UK today—for both consumers and vape businesses—I expected a rosier picture.

I know people have different feelings about it because of the environmental angle, but I’m still trying to get my head around the disposable vape ban.

Yes, the UK situation has changed for the worst, there have been some setbacks, but hopefully things will change. Last year, we had Clive Bates speaking at an event we organised in London, and one of the things he said was that now, when it comes to disposable vapes, everyone seems to be an environmental expert.

Another thing he said is that disposable devices had a very small limit that was completely arbitrary. Changing those limits would have done a lot to address the disposable waste and environmental issues.

Is there anything else that We Are Innovation is doing over the next while that you’d like to highlight?

Yes, as you know, we do a lot of work regarding different topics. We’re about to publish some interesting studies on nuclear energy. It’s quite interesting, Joseph, and I like to highlight this. Our work on nuclear energy is less polemic than our work regarding innovation in nicotine. That should tell you a lot.

Wow.

I’m not exaggerating. We think nuclear energy is amazing, it’s a blessing, and it’s environmentally friendly, but it should be a way more difficult topic than innovation in nicotine. When a nuclear power plant is less controversial than a nicotine pouch, maybe something is not right.

Additionally, we’ve just published a paper that highlights the EU case for innovation in nicotine products, which is based on the Eurobarometer smoking prevalence trends. We’ve tried to explain how Sweden, Greece, and the Czech Republic have enacted sensible policies that have resulted in smoking rates going down.

We’re planning to publish a few new reports on these topics by the end of the year. Also, we’ve planned some events in Brussels and other parts of Europe and the world. So, if people are interested, they can go to our website, our social media and see what we’re doing.

I hope that you can find some time to get some rest during that busy schedule.

That’s unlikely. (laughs)

You can watch the film here –