After interviews with harm reduction legends Karl Fagerstrom and Clive Bates, this all-killer, no-filler series continues with the inimitable Martin Cullip.
Martin is a lot of things. A successful businessman, a writer, a free market champion, an International Fellow at The Taxpayers Protection Alliance's Consumer Center, and a consistent thorn in the side of tobacco control lunatics.
He’s also a much-loved and genial figure in the harm-reduction advocacy space. I admire him because he’s passionate, straight-talking, and capable of seeing through the nonsense of the modern world.
Martin was kind enough to give me some time to chat about the insanity of UK politics, how poor harm reduction policy will destroy the Conservatives, what the hell is wrong with modern-day parents, and much, much more.
Harm Reduction Advocacy and Tobacco Control Measures
You’ve been doing harm reduction advocacy for over 15 years, and in that time, the evidence is getting stronger and stronger, but tobacco control measures are getting more absurd. What is happening?
It’s just bonkers. All the evidence is on our side, but it’s getting ignored. I think they’re criminals, to be honest, the liars in tobacco control, and that’s what they are: they’re liars. But politicians are listening to these liars and allowing them to harm public health.
We’re on the side of public health, and we’re losing.
It’s literally that simple. The UK government’s approach to harm reduction used to be something to be proud of, but even that’s a joke now.
Rishi Sunak is an idiot, isn’t he? The Conservative government is not just going to lose the election; they could go into oblivion. He might have destroyed the party as a political force for good.
I’m reading the Telegraph's online comments quite a lot, and I’ve seen a lot of people saying they’ve voted Conservative for 40 or 50 years and they’re never voting for them again. They don’t want them to lose; they want them to be destroyed.
Impact of Vaping Policies on Voters
Rishi’s instincts are questionable, to say the least. How much of an impact do you think his vaping policies could have on his chances? What are the main themes of discontent among ex-Conservative voters?
It’s just generally the lot. The way the Conservatives are attacking landlords means they’re destroying the rental market. They were going to build houses and relax planning laws, but they’ve backed out of that. And now they’re saying they’re going to abolish non-dom status.
So, now we’ve got people who have been saying that for the last 10 or 13 years, they haven’t had a Conservative party, but they’re just voting them in to keep Labour out. But now, they see no real difference between the two, so they’re saying they might as well just vote Reform.
Challenges Faced by the Conservative Party
It makes sense. The lines have become so blurred. It's been hugely disappointing how the Conservatives chipped away at freedom of speech and haven’t managed to stand up to the nutters.
And, of course, all the nanny state stuff that this is a part of as well. They’re attacking free speech with laws; they’re attacking freedom of choice; it’s just everything. They didn’t do fracking, which could have led to a reduction in the cost of living pressures.
Everyone thought that when Boris came in he was going to scrap HS2, but he backed off on that. Every conservative decision they could have made, they’ve backed off on or gone the other way. Their long-term supporters feel totally betrayed, and they’re not going to support it anymore.
I went to a SME4Labour dinner with the UK Vaping Industry Association (UKVIA). I was sitting at a table of young Labour members, and this was at a time when Starmer was talking about relaxing planning laws and other conservative policies.
So, I was saying to these guys, “I’ve always been a bit afraid of Labour because they would go against the things I want, but they’re sounding more Conservative than the Labour party at the moment.”
Aside from how bad they’ll be in harm reduction, that threat is no longer there because the Conservatives have just lost it so badly.
I read a funny article in which Keir Starmer advocated for supervised tooth brushing in primary schools and bemoaned the fact that people would criticise the policy and say, “Oh, that’s nanny state.” And it’s like, yeah, Kier, they probably will say that because it’s the type of job that a nanny does.
I’m worried about Starmer and what he might do to harm reduction.
No matter who we vote for, they’re all for the nanny state these days. They’re completely hypnotised by all these health groups who give money to lobby them. These groups are constantly in the government's ear, but they never listen to us.
That’s why I was astonished to see what’s happening in Canada. There are consumer groups talking to Public Health Canada, and it makes no difference. But that seems to have a lot to do with the Health Minister, Mark Holland.
It’s the same with the UK. What I think happened is Rishi has come in and appointed Andrea Ledson as Health Minister, and she’s an idiot and always has been, and Sunak doesn’t understand the first thing about harm reduction and just goes with whatever he’s been told by his advisors.
The consultation they did had a preconceived conclusion, and they got what they wanted out of it.
So, what’s Sunak up to?
Well, he thinks that these policies are popular. What he doesn't seem to consider is that there are 5 million vapers in this country, and for them, this is a vote-moving policy. For all the mums who were saying they don’t like disposables, well, sure, he’s gotten rid of disposables, but they’re not going to vote for him because of that. It’s a tiny piece of policy for these people, and it won’t shift their vote.
But 5 million vapers is one in 10 voters in this country. Interestingly, if you look at his approval ratings, his decline has increased since he’s come up with these so-called popular policies.
That’s really interesting and not something that people are talking about nearly enough.
Mark Pawsey (MP for Rugby) often mentions that the number of people who were afraid of what the EU was doing about vaping was enough to swing the Brexit vote because it was such a tight margin. Even a small percentage of vapers could have been the difference.
It’s a shame because vapers are potentially a powerful bloc of voters that are hard to get organised. But it’s a life-or-death thing, and even non-vapers have friends or family who have passed away or had their lives altered by smoking. So, these numbers could be theoretically higher.
Anecdotes of Public Perspective towards Vaping
Jamie Oliver was very popular in the 90s, with his TV shows and the whole mockney thing. But there are lots of people who went to school in the 90s who absolutely hate him because he took Turkey Twizzlers off their school lunches. They’ve never forgotten it.
So, think of the people who are now in their 20s who enjoy disposable vapes. They’re going to remember Rishi Sunak as the man who banned their vapes. He’s effectively lost that demographic — if he ever even had them.
The thing is, young adults like vapes. When I see them vaping, I just think how great it is. I’ve said it so many times, but I’ve been going to cricket since 1981, so I’ve seen a lot of cricket crowds over the years. I noticed a few years ago that I saw loads of people in their 20s vaping, but I didn’t see any of them smoking.
Yes! It’s a real rarity now when you see people who are under 30 smoking. However, the statistics say otherwise. I think I’m spending too much time in nice neighbourhoods, to be honest.
Yeah, it’s concentrated in the lower socioeconomic groups and areas, especially up north. I said it to my friend at the cricket: look at all these people vaping. Twenty years ago, they would have been smoking cigarettes because they’re still going to need nicotine. Humans used it for 12,000 years; it’s not going anywhere.
I think we should celebrate this. Janine Timmons in Canada says, “Where’s the parade? Where is the parade to celebrate all of this?”
You’ve been banging your head against the wall for over 15 years. What do you think the next 15 years will look like?
If they ban all the flavours, there will be a big growth in black markets. When all the flavours are gone, people aren’t going to accept that. People don’t like laws that they feel are unjustified. This is why, for years, the guy who sold packs of Golden Virginia down the pub was seen as a hero.
ASH figures suggest teen vaping in the UK is less than 4%. What are people so afraid of?
When my sons were 17 or 18, I went to a Labour Party conference. I was on a panel with Sir Kevin Barron (ex-MP for Rother Valley between 1983 and 2019), who is a big supporter of vaping.
There was a Q&A, and around the seventh or eighth question was about youth vaping. Even that’s interesting because these days, it would probably be the first question. Anyway, one person put their hand up in the back of the room and said, “I know these things are great, but I’m a bit worried cause sometimes I see young people vaping.”
So I replied that I’ve got two kids, and if someone told me that the only thing they did that was not approved of was vaping, then I’d be absolutely thrilled.
A gasp went up around the room, so I had to explain it. I told them I didn’t want my kids doing drugs, smoking, having underage sex or drunk driving. If you told me the only thing they’d do is vaping, I’d be absolutely over the moon.
As vices go, nicotine is really benign. One of the funny things about nicotine pouches is that tobacco control voices were previously fixated on the lungs. Now that nicotine pouches have solved that nonproblem, it’s still not good enough.
Their new angle is that it’s addictive. Well, coffee is addictive, but there are no daily articles in the Guardian, the Mail and the BBC saying they were really worried about all these young people drinking coffee. It would be considered absurd.
The way they’re attacking pouches in Canada and Australia recently is ridiculous. There was an article in Canada recently saying they were concerned that young people were using pouches. Then the article admitted there is no evidence of teen use, but they’re still worried about it.
They’re just Puritans, and the arguments change depending on what they’re attacking.
I remember when I first started writing about e-cigarettes in 2009, I was rubbing my hands, saying, this is going to be great. I remember people always going on about how they couldn’t stand the stink of tobacco, but now they say they can’t stand the stink of strawberries. And I’m thinking, are you listening to yourself?
A lot of the time, the people who object to vaping just don’t like vaping. It was the same thing with smoking, which is why people bought into the smoking ban because it allowed them to ban something they didn’t like.
I sympathise with those people a bit. I remember that with restaurants, putting out cigarettes in half-eaten desserts. That must have been horrible for non-smokers.
That feels like a lifetime ago, and it makes the current-day stuff even more absurd. What’s the biggest frustration for you in terms of modern-day advocacy?
Importance of Dialogue with Vapers
It’s that politicians don’t want to listen to the public or consumers. They should be the first people they talk to because they’re the ones most affected, and they’re the experts on these issues.
Excluding experts like us is one thing, but they should speak to people who’ve switched from cigarettes to vaping. But they don’t, because they’re not interested.
Sunak will say this is a popular policy because some people want to ban disposables. But have you spoken to the people who use them? Have you spoken to stop smoking services?
They’ve ignored ASH, who said it would increase the black market. He’s ignored almost everyone because of a few mums who don’t understand what vaping is and think it will kill their kids in the next few days.
Why doesn’t he talk to the people who know about these things and then educate the idiots as to why they shouldn’t be scared that their kids are vaping?
We’re increasingly seeing these stories where parents are saying my kids were so hooked on vaping that I had to give them cigarettes to get them off them!
Haha, yeah, that might not be the only issue those parents have going on. It’s really sad how effectively the media have been in convincing people that vaping and smoking have equal harm.
Yes, there was research from UCL that showed 57% of people think vaping is just as harmful as smoking or worse than smoking.
That’s really bad. The tobacco industry couldn’t have pulled that off if they tried.
The thing about the disposable ban is that we see across the world that it becomes a fad with young people, reaches a peak, and then comes down cause they get bored with it. That will happen in the UK, and it’s already happened in America. Theirs peaked in 2019 and has dropped by around 72% from its peak.
So that’s going to happen here, too. If we stuck it out for another year, it would trend down. But now, when it happens naturally, the government is going to claim credit for it.
So, it’s like, what fads do they want? Would they rather have cocaine or opioids? I mean, that’s the mad thing about America. Opioids are killing thousands and thousands of kids, and all you ever hear about is youth vaping, which hasn’t killed any.
It’s madness. The money that is spent on youth vaping prevention should be directed toward the opioid crisis.
Role of Vaping in Harm Reduction
My colleague Lindsey Stroud gets really angry about them ignoring opioids. I think the figures are that about 50 kids a day are dying from Fentanyl, Oxycontin, and other generic opioids. And no one seems to care. Sometimes, the topic gets a bit of attention if the kids vape opioids, which is ridiculous because it doesn’t make them more lethal.
Is that because vaping is a middle-class kid's problem?
Absolutely. Like PAVE, the mums against vaping in the US; they’re millionaires or something, and their kids are vaping, so it’s suddenly a problem.
When it’s young kids from poor neighbourhoods or Black kids, they’re not bothered and never have been. Just not interested. But when middle-class kids start vaping, all of a sudden, it’s a crisis.
Yeah, I wonder if all this is about their anxiety as parents. It’s the next step in these helicopter parenting styles that seemed utterly bizarre to me as a child of the 80s.
It was such a different experience when we were just kicked out of the house at 10, and you’d come back when it was dark. Parenting doesn’t seem like that anymore.
Yeah, I remember that. If I were going out, my dad would say, “Where are you going, and what time are you coming back?” And you’d get in trouble if you didn’t come back at the time you said.
We used to go out all day. A few years ago, we had the media panic about paedophiles, and all the research suggests the numbers haven’t magically gone up. They were always around; we just knew where they were and were told not to go near that house.
Oh, 100%. There was always that dodgy house that we were told to play a few doors down from.
Parents have just become too precious. In the early days of my transport business, we used to ferry people to focus groups. Mostly, it was housewives they wanted to talk to because they were the ones who were in control of the family budget for shopping and stuff like that.
You’d get talking to them in the taxi, and they’d be panicked about this or that. And I’d say to them, we’ll, it’s the same as when I was young. But they’d tell me, no, no, the roads are more dangerous than ever, or whatever it was.
So, I’d look up this stuff and find out the roads are safer than they’ve ever been. There’s CCTV everywhere, and you’ve got a phone to contact your kids.
Everything is much better, but these parents are convinced their kids are always in danger. We were in much more danger when we were young than the kids are now.
Absolutely. If you wanted to kidnap a kid, the time to do it was the 70s or 80s.
Anyway, switching gears, I really liked your article for the Daily Pouch about the Argentinian President Javier Milel. He seems like a really interesting character.
Yeah, there is a distrust of conviction politicians these days. This is why we’ve got these wishy-washy Conservatives who don’t really know what they’re meant to be doing. We used to have politicians who had their beliefs and stuck to them.
I mean, my dad hated Howard Wilson, but he’d always admit that Wilson knew what he wanted and stuck to it. And you look back, while I might not agree with his policies, everyone agrees that Tony Benn was a very principled guy. Or guys like Dennis Healy, who, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, stood up to his own party when he went to the IMF to devalue the pound.
In the past, we had politicians of that calibre, and you look at what we have now, and you just think, you’re just a bunch of clowns.
Yeah, where are the characters? I was looking back at 90s Labour and people like Jack Straw, Mo Mowlem, and Robin Cook, and even if we don’t agree with them on everything, they were characters—people who’ve actually lived lives and have experiences and a basic interest in people.
Like, even now, just say Rishi got bumped. Who could they even replace him with?
There’s no one obvious.
Things are bad here, but they’re even worse in Australia.
It’s just bonkers. And it’s all basically because of one or two men, like Simon Chapman, who I've had run-ins with over the years. I’ve loved getting under his skin.
I remember when he started mentioning my blog, probably around 2010. I couldn’t believe it. This guy is right at the top of the tree in public health in Australia, and I’ve obviously upset him.
So I used to tease him because he hates being called Mr.Chapman; he wants to be called Dr. Chapman or Professor Chapman or whatever. So, I went one further by calling him a Sydney pensioner.
Yes! That’s great.
Or Chris Snowden went one better by calling him a scrotum-faced headbanger.
Superb. Chris Snowden is great, isn’t he? Amazing writer.
We sort of started around the same time, funny enough. We were both pissed off with the smoking ban, and we joined this forum called Freedom to Choose. So, we connected there to talk about the proper ways we could challenge the ban.
Unfortunately, smokers self-shame, so they never stand up for themselves.
But that’s the thing with Rishi banning disposables and taxing vaping. Vapers are not like that. They’ve done what they were told to do, which is quit smoking. They’re proud to be vapers, and they will see these moves as the government shitting on them, and it will be a vote-moving issue.
I wonder why he can’t see it. I always think that the people behind him must be smart enough, right?
You used to have civil servants who would point this stuff out to them, but they don’t seem to have them anymore. Or if they do have them, Sunak is just listening to all the lunatic doctors and medical people, who, again, have never understood smokers and don’t understand vapers.
The one good thing that David Cameron did was listen to the behavioural research unit and say, we’re not going to ban those things, and that was great.
So, now we have a situation where people say that vapes are good to help quit smoking, but you should still give up vaping afterward. But that just shows that they don’t understand vaping.
That’s why they should be talking to consumers. But they’re not talking to consumers. They should be finding out what motivates them. Cause if you then say, oh, that’s enough now, we’ve got the smoking rate down, and now you have to quit vaping too, these people will just turn around and buy a packet of fags again.
Yeah, that’s a real thing. I remember when vaping products weren’t so easy to obtain; you had to mail order them. And if I wasn’t organised enough, I’d have to go back to cigarettes while I waited for my package to arrive. I guess that dynamic hasn’t changed for many people.
The transition takes time for some people. I became interested in vaping around 2009, but I didn’t quit cigarettes fully until 2015 because the batteries became more powerful, and I found a flavour I liked.
What was that flavour?
I think it was Pear Drops.
Lovely. The only flavour I don’t like is tobacco. I think it’s so bitter.
Well, it doesn’t taste like tobacco, does it?
I had to tell the industry that. I was at an event in America a few years back with some manufacturers, and I told them that their tobacco flavours were shit and they just didn’t taste like tobacco.
A few of them were surprised. But I told them that the reason smokers don’t like tobacco flavours is because they don’t taste like tobacco.
It’s hard. You can’t make a realistic tobacco flavour.
Yeah, when I taste them, I think, Is that what people think tobacco tastes like to me? We’re lucky with the flavours now; there is such a wide selection.
Nostalgic Influence on Vaping Flavours
One thing I have been thinking about lately is that a lot of the flavours that people try to say attract kids are actually really nostalgic sweets from when we were young. These flavours wouldn’t really resonate with younger people.
Yeah, I don’t think they sell Pear Drops anymore.
I think it's much more that people who were making juices in these cottage industries were nostalgic for things from their childhood more than anything.
This leads me to another thing, which is the DIY aspect of vaping. It was just this organic thing that happened without help from the government. There was this genuine grassroots movement, with citizens building mods and making juices. It’s kind of sad that this has all been lost.
Growth and Evolution of Vaping
Once people who looked at it — not people like me, I’m not practical at all; I can barely hang a picture on the wall — but, you know, people with sheds, they pulled it apart, and said, this is very simple tech, I know how to do this.
Some of the early mods weren’t regulated, which meant they were a bit dangerous. Once independent businesses started making them, they were able to ask specific things of the Chinese manufacturers, and that's where the trade came from.
I guess nic salts were one of the big reasons why devices became more streamlined in recent years.
Yeah, everyone’s gone for simplicity. Interestingly, Sarah Jakes, one of the founders of the New Nicotine Alliance, just uses a Caliburn.
Me too!
And the big surprise for me was Dave Cross of the Planet of the Vapes. He’s done reviews of just about every piece of vaping equipment ever invented. He knows all of them. And yet, when I saw him in Warsaw in June, he was using disposables. He said. “Ah, I can’t be bothered with the fuss anymore.”
The only issue for disposables for me is that I end up spending a lot of money on them. But they’re just perfect for every drag.
Concluding Thoughts
I remember going to vape expos and a number of liquids I tried, I’d think that’s lovely! But you’re using the perfect kit, and it’s all set up right. So, you’d buy ten of them and get them home and put them in your own device with a coil that’s half messed up, and it’s just not the same.
With disposables, you just take it out of the pack, and it’s perfect. But if a lot of early adopters think they can’t be bothered with the faff, and they know how to do all the faff, and they can’t be bothered, then what’s going to happen when you get rid of disposables? What are smokers going to do?
That’s a really good point.
I have a little bit of sympathy with the public not understanding this stuff. Even when I wanted to find out about them so I could advocate against the government banning them, I needed to know how they worked. It took a long time for it to click and to understand how the system worked.
People showed me and they were very patient, but I had to ask a lot of questions to get there. And that’s me, someone who was eager to learn. For the general public, it must be like trying to learn how rocket fuel works or something.
Me too. At one point, I was making coils, too. I must have had a lot of time on my hands cause it’s not something I’d do now.
I remember doing that, too.
They were never as good as the ones you could buy. But I guess pod systems are cool, and they’re roughly idiot-proof. One other thing about disposables is that you might meet someone who smokes on a night out and you can give them a disposable to get them on their journey. I’m not sure you can do that with a £30 machine; they’d think you were obsessed with them or something.
Yeah, when I owned my company, about half our staff smoked cigarettes. But they’d see me vaping and ask what it was. By the end, only about 10 of 110 people smoked there.
One time, I had a passenger, and she said she smoked, but she wanted to try vaping. So, she asked me where she could get one. So, I had to tell her I got the battery from one site, the mod from another, the tank from here, and the mouthpiece from another. She thought I was taking the piss.
Yeah, that perfectly sums up why banning disposables is a huge mistake. Putting friction between people who smoke and the products that can save their lives is bad policy. There are 5 million of us; let’s punish this madness at the polling station.
